Curse

lyra_song · Jun 15, 2007, 03:28 PM // 15:28

I see the GW community as getting more and more aggressive and jaded and angry.

And it looks like Gaile's just losing her coolheadedness since shes usually the brunt target of all our bullshit.

Her reactions, while totally unprofessional, are completely understandable as a human reaction, considering how much shit she puts up with.

Ive done customer relations, i look to my left and i hear our customer relations department less than 50 feet from me.

Im sure Gaile wants to wring everyone's neck.

Our customer reps over here, they hang up the phone and sigh. Its ridiculous what customers demand. The customer rep cant do anything but funnel information back and forth. I call that job Bullshit translator.

Its an uneviable position, and with this kind of ferocious and passionate community, its hard to stay professional when the customers get personal all the time.

--------

So what now? Someone got any actual tangible reform ideas or are we just bitching here?

An actual PvP rep maybe?

majoho · Jun 15, 2007, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

That's because they're all single player games.

Well, WoW has CR's but they don't actually interact with people - same can be said for other MMO's.

Tiyuri · Jun 15, 2007, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Frankly I think someone from the PVP community should be hired as a rep, heck a lot of people would probably do it for free.

Kilroy Stonekin · Jun 15, 2007, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

Did you play other games?

Because even having an active Community Relations person is pretty rare, most game-makers have no interaction with their customers at all.

I see this basically is a "let's see if we can get Gaile fired or make her quit" thread.

Nah.. More like a what the hell is going on?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

"Gaile, you have to remember that I've got Izzy's personal contact info. I check up on things that are talked about in the forums with him.*snip* So, you say that proposals such as mine are "seen, understood, and discussed internally?" Then Izzy must be one hell of an actor, because it's almost always the case that he asks me to explain what I mean. If he really were getting that sort of info, why wouldn't he know to what I refer? We had a colossal hex thread, and when I brought some conclusions to him it was the first he'd heard of it." - David Holtzman

You don't see anything wrong here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

So why do I think Gaile has no PVP knowledge? Well for starters reading over her diary of the Guild Wars faction championships she mentions being asked to play in some GVG.

During this paragraph she mentions how she usually runs a R/Mo healer, she has trouble differentiating between her own team and the opposing team, specifically making the mistake that she'd poisoned her own team mates with poison arrow.

Or here? You must be either blind or one of Gaile Grey's fan club members.

w00t! · Jun 15, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Why, I pay them money for a service, surely that gives me the right to question the effectiveness of certain key aspects of that service.

It's just too bad that you don't understand them well before you question them.

How long is their development cycle? Do you have any idea?

Do you know how they prioritize their enhancements and break-fixes?

Your OP on the possible need for a PvP representative is perhaps on target, but the rest of the post is merely an ad-hominem attack.

Please tell me how quickly they prioritize and implement an enhancement, explain their development cycle, and then I'll possibly give your post some credence. Otherwise it's just /yawn.

TabascoSauce · Jun 15, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

I see this basically is a "let's see if we can get Gaile fired or make her quit" thread.

That is because you have an all-or-nothing attitude. Try and see shades of gray - since the world is nothing but. I've been constructively criticized before, and this is his attempt at such for the community relations system that ANet has - it has problems.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Tucks · Jun 15, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I see the GW community as getting more and more aggressive and jaded and angry.

Do you not wonder where that anger is coming from? And why it is directed at her?

lyra_song · Jun 15, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Frankly I think someone from the PVP community should be hired as a rep, heck a lot of people would probably do it for free.

Then theyd realize how hard a job it is and quit?

Tiyuri · Jun 15, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Where does their development cycle come into this, I didn't even mention the (appallingly long) time it takes to get relatively obvious fixes out whilst they completely damage the game...

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Then theyd realize how hard a job it is and quit?

I don't believe that at all, the amount of crap I get from PVE players at gwonline is huge, I probably get more hate than Gaile, it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Productivity · Jun 15, 2007, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Great thread and it has been coming for a long time now. How it's managed to get to this stage is beyond me but there has been a clear failure from Gaile to fulfill her role.

Gawa · Jun 15, 2007, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

I pay them money for a service, surely that gives me the right to question the effectiveness of certain key aspects of that service.

No, you paid them for a game. As is.
Not to have a particular style of Customer Relations Manager who is as you said, "someone with a high level of PVP knowledge should be hired to take care of the PVP community? Someone who actively competes at a high level and will understand the changing metagame?"

That would be icing on the cake, in your case

Which dont get me wrong, if i was as into PvP as you obviously are, then i would love it if there was staff who felt that way about PvP. However, i believe that more than only Gail reads these and other fan forums, so no doubt there are other opinions going to the Devs.

Quote:

I always find it baffling that players feel it's fine to question the art team, the design team, the sound team and so on, but when it comes to customer relations, no matter how dissatisfied we are with the way it's being carried out, we're being "insulting and personal" if we criticise it at all.

Im not sure if you are referring to me here or not. However, i have not and will not critisise any of the staff, regardless of dept. We all do have a right to critisise...but not to insult.
There is a world apart from a healthy and constructive critque and a veiled insult.

w00t! · Jun 15, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Where does their development cycle come into this, I didn't even mention the (appallingly long) time it takes to get relatively obvious fixes out whilst they completely damage the game...

If you don't know how the development cycle is involved with community relations, and how Gaile responds to comments and criticisms, then you certainly have no credibility.

Nimble Night · Jun 15, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Although what you say sounds a bit harsh, I agree with your statements Tiyuri.

Xycury · Jun 15, 2007, 03:41 PM // 15:41

I absolutely see no purpose in this thread. nor any of the ones in GWO.

to be frank, if i have a problem with a service, i go to the source.

why don't you contact Anet directly, go over Gaile's head with this. This would be the business way of doing things.

posting a thread like this is just getting a mob ready with pitchforks and torches....

I agree that there should be a voice for PVP. Gaile seems more PVE.

Why isn't IZZY speaking to the public... maybe because he can't. maybe because he has a boss. maybe because he doesn't know anything is because he makes suggestions, draws data together, and submits this to a boss?

I'm sure Izzy isn't the one approving of these changes. I'm sure he is probably required to say something about it if it is changed, he is the one hired to do so.

I think Gaile's job is to collect the thoughts and ideas of the community. not to address us like PR stating everything Anet does.

that's PR.

CR to me is taking our ideas and thoughts and making a voice for the community to Anet. The OTHER way around...... than what Tiyuri is thinking i beleive.

Seriously, just close this thread and find the number Anet and call her boss. That would be the most constructive of your time and benefit more to Anet than this stupid thread.

lyra_song · Jun 15, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tucks

Do you not wonder where that anger is coming from? And why it is directed at her?

I know why there is anger. I know why there is anger towards her.

But i also know a lot it is unfounded and by people who dont sit down to rationally think out what they are angry about.

Anet decided to nerf the armor buff stacking. Is that Gaile's fault? No. But im sure someone will find a way to blame her.

If not, then they will blame her for not communicating to the devs that we dont like it.

Doesnt matter what she does, shes screwed regardless of the reason for why people are mad, simply because she is the messenger.

Ecklipze · Jun 15, 2007, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimble Night

Although what you say sounds a bit harsh, I agree with your statements Tiyuri.

The harshness is justified, things have been said about this over and over yet constantly fall on deaf ears.

trobinson97 · Jun 15, 2007, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawa

i have not and will not criticize any of the staff, regardless of dept.

Then you will just take anything that's giving to you, regardless of whether or not you agree with it? That's essentially what you are saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xycury

I absolutely see no purpose in this thread. nor any of the ones in GWO.

to be frank, if i have a problem with a service, i go to the source.

why don't you contact Anet directly, go over Gaile's head with this. This would be the business way of doing things.

You'd go to the source, and would be told to post a thread on a fan forum.

Sli Ander · Jun 15, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Please do not respond to people presenting opposing views by trying to call them "Fan club members" "fanboys" "mindless zombie drones" or whatever the phrase of the month is. It would be nice to have a nice calm discussion about the actual opening post.
I was going to post in the other thread, but it's apparently a double so I didn't get a chance, and bits of what I was going to say have been covered here. So I'll only address this one thing.
I want a pony in the game. A pink pony with a red polka dot bow and vibrant yellow feathers growing from its nose. They're giving me a service, that service being a digital world, and so I should get my beautiful pony because I gave them money.
But what about the other 3 million players that have to look at my pony? While I agree that the higher end pvp players have a vast store of knowledge that should be drawn upon, I think you fail to realize that though they are the minority, not even the majority can simply demand something and expect Anet to deliver. Anet promised a fantasy world, and they deigned to listen and let us help shape it. This can be seen in the official suggestions thread where (if I recall correctly) they have a list of every suggestion that has been utilized in the game. It's quite a lot.

You're looking at one aspect of a game, these people have to deal with every niggling detail of the world of Tyria and make sure it balances out properly,and that customer demands don't produce a clone of another game on the market. You have your best interests at heart when you think of what you want for your playing experience, Anet has to make sure to have GW's best interest's at heart: to ensure that they satisfy as many people as possible without ruining the game in the long term.

And I don't really want a pony like that. I just enjoy being flippant.

But that's just my two cents

Blame the Monks · Jun 15, 2007, 03:47 PM // 15:47

I think gaile is doing an OK job, but not great.

The pve community likes her and she is generally polite (her recent foux pax notwithstanding). And let's face it -- her job is to be a barrier. To stop us from bothering the dev team and spoon feed us marketing propaganda from time to time. Given that role, she is decent.

But as people caught on that community relations is the same old barrier system and not a genuine attempt at building community and accepting feedback, people wore thin on gaile. She doesn't play the game, doesn't understand the community, and doesn't seem to realize people are frustrated because they are ignored and the game is getting worse and worse. And let's be real here -- her job has to be more than pacification. She needs to be accurately giving good feedback to the devs so the game can be fixed, and for whatever reason that isn't happening.

It isn't her fault that the game isn't balanced and has been horribly mismanaged in other areas. It isn't her fault that real technical constraints exist. But it is her fault that the community feels ignored and frustrated. It is her fault for failing to provide information about real problems. It is her fault for failing to explain why things happen as they do.

You ignore your customers, they go elsewhere. The exodus is in plain view, both in the US and in Korea. The few who complain are anet's best chance to understand why, but gaile can't see them as anything other than whiners. And that's why she needs to be "promoted" to director of community relations or w/e and have someone else handle the actual community relations.

Tiyuri · Jun 15, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sli Ander

Please do not respond to people presenting opposing views by trying to call them "Fan club members" "fanboys" "mindless zombie drones" or whatever the phrase of the month is. It would be nice to have a nice calm discussion about the actual opening post.
I was going to post in the other thread, but it's apparently a double so I didn't get a chance, and bits of what I was going to say have been covered here. So I'll only address this one thing.
I want a pony in the game. A pink pony with a red polka dot bow and vibrant yellow feathers growing from its nose. They're giving me a service, that service being a digital world, and so I should get my beautiful pony because I gave them money.
But what about the other 3 million players that have to look at my pony? While I agree that the higher end pvp players have a vast store of knowledge that should be drawn upon, I think you fail to realize that though they are the minority, not even the majority can simply demand something and expect Anet to deliver. Anet promised a fantasy world, and they deigned to listen and let us help shape it. This can be seen in the official suggestions thread where (if I recall correctly) they have a list of every suggestion that has been utilized in the game. It's quite a lot.

You're looking at one aspect of a game, these people have to deal with every niggling detail of the world of Tyria and make sure it balances out properly,and that customer demands don't produce a clone of another game on the market. You have your best interests at heart when you think of what you want for your playing experience, Anet has to make sure to have GW's best interest's at heart: to ensure that they satisfy as many people as possible without ruining the game in the long term.

And I don't really want a pony like that. I just enjoy being flippant.

But that's just my two cents

Taking this to the extreme suggesting we're claiming she should listen to the demands of the individual is not really constructive.

This is not one person wanting a pony, this is the general consensus of the PVP community, these are things countless people want to see implemented, things completely breaking the game right now.